Country Fried Rock 1212: James McMurtry on Music and Protest
Summary
James McMurtry, a heavyweight in the music world, takes center stage in this convo, diving deep into the heart of protest music and social change. He kicks things off with a hilarious admission about writing songs just to get ladies' attention (classic move)! As they riff on McMurtry's journey from lonely beer garden gigs to crafting powerful anthems, he shares the backstory of his iconic protest song, "We Can't Make It Here," which struck a chord right before the 2004 elections. The discussion morphs into a thoughtful analysis of how music can serve as a catalyst for dialogue, especially around issues like corporate power versus the people's voice. With a sprinkle of humor and a whole lot of insight, this episode is a delightful blend of McMurtry's personal anecdotes and a savvy commentary on the current state of society, leaving listeners both entertained and contemplative.
Show Notes
Country Fried Rock takes you behind the scenes of James McMurtry’s world, where his music meets life’s raw truths. Here’s the inside scoop on what to expect from this unforgettable conversation:
A Playful Start:
- McMurtry kicks things off with a laugh, admitting his first push into songwriting was driven by a simple desire for attention, specifically from women. It’s a fun, light-hearted beginning that sets a laid-back tone for the whole episode.
The Early Struggles:
- As he looks back on his first performances in beer gardens, McMurtry paints a picture of the grind: learning to play cover songs to get gigs, then slowly sneaking in his original stuff. The way he tells it, you can almost hear the clink of beer bottles and the hum of a tired crowd.
Protest Music & Politics:
- The conversation gets deeper when McMurtry talks about his iconic protest song, “We Can’t Make It Here.” Written during a tense time in U.S. politics, the song became a rallying cry for many, capturing the frustrations of everyday folks. McMurtry explains how protest music can spark important conversations without pushing people away, all while balancing the fine line between political commentary and universal truths.
Writing With Purpose:
- He shares his process of crafting songs that not only raise questions but also make room for connection. It’s all about creating music that invites listeners to reflect—without alienating them. His insights are both witty and wise, proving there's more to his music than meets the ear.
The Future of McMurtry’s Music:
- As the episode winds down, McMurtry hints at a shift toward more personal storytelling in his upcoming work. He's not done evolving, and it’s clear he’s always searching for deeper ways to connect with his audience. Plus, there's talk of collaborations with legends like Joan Baez, making us all eager to hear what's next.
This episode is a fascinating glimpse into the mind of a musician who has used his craft to not just entertain, but to engage and inspire generations.
Chapters
- 00:18 - Interview with James McMurtry
- 02:05 - The Journey of Songwriting and Protest Music
- 05:45 - The Influence of Corporate Power on Government
- 10:41 - The Evolution of Music Production
- 19:16 - The Austin Residency and Its Impact on Local Artists
- 20:47 - Intellectual Property and Music in the Digital Age
Takeaways
- James McMurtry started writing songs primarily to impress women, revealing his youthful motivations behind creativity.
- His early musical inspirations were drawn from obscure artists like David Bromberg and John Hartford, shaping his unique sound.
- The evolution of his songwriting reflects a deeper personal drive, transcending mere commercial success or popularity.
- McMurtry's protest song, "We Can't Make It Here", illustrates the power of music to resonate with social issues, gaining unexpected traction among listeners.
- He emphasizes the importance of the listener's connection to a song, suggesting that a popular tune's success often hinges on its relatability.
- The ongoing dialogue about the intersection of music and social change reveals both challenges and opportunities for artists in today's political climate.
Links
- REMINDER: IGNORE ALL LINKS OR EVENTS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE FROM 2012
- James McMurtry
- You may also enjoy this conversation from 2015 with M. Lockwood Porter
- Toss a few in our Tip Jar!
Mentioned in this Episode
- Jimmy Buffett
- David Bromberg
- John Hartford
- Joan Baez
- C.C. Adcock
- Bill Clinton
- George Bush
- Stephen King
- Lucinda Williams
- Johnny Burke
- NAFTA
Recommended If You Like
James McMurtry interview, protest songs, social change music, Country Fried Rock podcast, songwriting inspiration, Americana music, Occupy Wall Street music, live music performance, music industry insights, songwriting process, vinyl records, music collaboration, critical acclaim in music, independent artist journey, music for social issues, contemporary folk music, music and politics, acoustic music scene, Texas music, modern protest music
Transcript
Speaker A
Welcome to Country Fried Rock, where we talk with musicians to find out what inspires their creativity.
Country Fried Rock Music Uncovered we're chatting with James McMurtry, a powerful figure in the music scene, including many social change songs and a recent protest song regarding the Occupy Wall street movement as well. And that just touches the tip of what James McMurtry does. Good morning, James. How are you?
Speaker B
I'm good.
Speaker A
Thank you for being with us. How did you start writing songs originally?
Speaker B
Well, I started writing songs so women would talk to me. Basically. I knew I wasn't gonna make the football team, so.
Speaker A
So in high school.
Speaker B
Yeah. What can a poor boy do, you know?
Speaker A
So original stuff started for you pretty early then?
Speaker B
Well, I guess I started. I was about 18, and I never really finished anything that I wanted to play till I was in my mid-20s. But you know, that.
That time I was playing little beer garden gigs for 10 bucks and free beer. You know, you had to play certain number of Jimmy Buffett songs or the food and beverage guy wouldn't hire you, you know.
But then I started working in a few originals with the. With all the COVID tunes.
Speaker A
Where was it that you were wanting to go with your original music at that time?
Speaker B
At that time, I was kind of in the vein of David Bromberg and some of the obscure writers that I knew about. John Hartford, people like that.
Speaker A
What tapped you into that music?
Speaker B
I don't know. I just. Somebody turned me onto it when I was a teenager and I mean, I listen to the Rolling Stones as well, but I listen to that other stuff too.
So the Hartford and Bromberg stuff lended itself to solo acoustic more. I wasn't working with bands much at that time, and I went to school in Tucson at that time. It was really easier find a gig as a solo.
There were a lot of these outdoor beer garden type places and coffee houses, that sort of thing. I mean, there were a few clubs that hired bands, but the bands of the time, that was new wave era, and I wasn't really into that.
I was into Southern rock. Fortunately, there was one pretty cool southern rock band there.
But a lot of times they'd have to go down to Bisbee to play because there were enough old hippies down there that they could find a gig.
Speaker A
As you moved forward then and continued writing. And it evolved for you, though, into something a little different. What kept you driving with the writing?
Speaker B
It was just something I did. I was going to do that whether I was making a living at it or not. But yeah, it was just something I wanted to do it was my drive.
Speaker A
As you move forward in what you were doing, you've had kind of huge peaks of critical acclaim. But then some of the songs that stand out over time have been maybe the quieter.
I don't want to put the term protest song on them, except that some of them maybe are.
Speaker B
Well, yeah, the protests. One of the protest songs got noticed. I wrote that song, We Can't Make It Here. I put that out right before. Right before the 2004 elections.
I wrote it and I put it out of the free download. And it got a lot more attention than anything I'd put on a record in a long, long time. And I think it just got.
It was lucky in that a lot of people identified with it. Just the nature of a popular song. A popular song is more about the listener than the writer.
The listener has to hear his or herself in the narrator song. So I was in the right place at the right time for that. And of course, that song developed a life of its own.
Now I just re recorded that because I heard Joan Baez wanted to sing on it. I went over to Louisiana and C.C. adcock and I put together a new track for it.
Speaker A
Cool.
Speaker B
And I think we're. I think Joan's supposed to put her vocal on it this week. I'm not sure that's exciting.
Speaker A
I didn't know about that. Yeah, not so much.
When a song ends up with a life of its own, that may not have anything to do with where you thought it would go, but in terms of having a feeling for yourself that you want to put into writing, and then it gets picked up like that in popularity. I mean, I don't know. The protest songs are started with the intent of ever being, quote, unquote, popular.
Speaker B
Well, that song was started because I felt powerless because I live in Texas and I tend to vote Democratic, which means my vote kind of goes nowhere. So the only power I had was through song and through a record deal.
I recorded that and first did it as a solo acoustic thing because I couldn't get the band in the studio for another two weeks. So I did that and I went down to KGSR radio because I knew the morning guy, Kevin Connor, let me spin anything. And I put some old style bleeps on it.
Speaker A
Yep.
Speaker B
So we wouldn't get in FCC trouble.
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker B
And went down and spun it at morning drive time. And of course, you know, this was 2004. Bush's numbers were soaring. And everybody took that as an anti Bush song, strictly.
So I put it on the air and I had nasty emails on the website before I even got home because so many people just had their whole identity wrapped up in George Bush. Think about it. For me, the song was not strictly an anti Bush song. I mean, I was no fan of the Bush administration.
But a lot of what the narrator complains about in that song really took wing under Clinton and probably have their roots further back in Reagan, Nixon, you know, failing back. So, you know, the chief problem that the narrator has, outsourcing, you know, and Clinton really fanned the flames on that one.
Bush did nothing to slow it down because his friends were getting just as rich as Clinton's were. And it's still going on and it's an ongoing process. And so the song works just fine under Obama.
Speaker A
When you take on a social issue that goes beyond Republican and Democrat, do you find that it opens up discourse or that it closes people off?
Speaker B
It's starting to open up discourse.
During the Bush years, it closed people off because you basically had two camps that were almost like religious cults and they weren't going to listen to each other. Now, with any luck, we can get some dialogue going because, you know, I don't see the problem in this country as right left, Republican, Democrat.
I see it more as the interests of the people versus the interests of the corporations.
Speaker A
And so is that what drew you into the Occupy Wall street movement?
Speaker B
Definitely. This is not just the U.S. this is a global thing.
What we've seen happening over the last few years is that governments have less and less power and they have less power to protect the people because the power now lies in multinational corporations. Back to Clinton. This is what Clinton should have been in peace for was nafta.
I don't care what his love life is like, what his practices are, but there's, you know, some of NAFTA really undermines our sovereignty and our safety. You know, Obama's just made a big show of blocking the Keystone pipeline. Well, that pipeline is going to go through whether he wants it or not.
Because if it's blocked, the Canadian parent company can sue us under nafta. Billions of dollars in projected loss of profit. You know, so there's no way out of that. And it was NAFTA that did it. You know, it's been done before.
The state of California at one point, they're interested in making their gasoline burn clean. And there was a Canadian company, that parent company that owned a US Company that produced something called mtbe, which makes the gas burn clean.
Problem with it is it's very hard to contain it's. Very carcinogenic. And a pinhole leak in an underground tank can contain contaminate groundwater for miles around.
Well, they came up with some contaminated wells around Lake Tahoe where the water quality is what they have to sell for the most part. The state of California banned mtv. Well, the Canadian company sued the state and won.
So the next time I was out there, suddenly half the gas stations are closed down and the other half have their tanks dug up, have to replace them with better tanks to hold that stuff. You know, that was a case of a corporation having more power than a government, and it shouldn't be that way. The governments are here.
And I don't fear government. I think big government could be useful. You know, it's basically a service organization.
Speaker A
Do you feel, and I don't know if this was the intent or not, but do you feel any kind of bond with the history of songs for social change in our country?
Speaker B
No, I haven't really thought about that. It's just more of a reaction, what is going on.
And it's just very tricky writing any kind of political song because it's very easy for the song to turn into a sermon, which nobody's going to want to listen to. And then more often it turns into a rant, which it can actually be kind of entertaining. But if you're really, really lucky, you get a song.
Speaker A
I think about just having watched the Grammys on Sunday night and Bruce Springsteen opening it up and thinking about the misinterpretation of songs that he has in the past. Do you feel that you're getting any kind of opposite reaction of what the thoughts were behind what you wanted to say?
Speaker B
Sometimes, yeah. I had another song called Chaney's Toy, which is more of a rant, and it starts with the image of the unknown soldier.
I guess I wasn't clear enough because a lot of people seem to think I was saying the soldiers were Cheney's toys. Not at all. I was saying that Bush was Cheney's toy. I felt like that was. That whole administration appeared to really be sort of a puppet show.
Bush as the puppet and Cheney is the puppet master. I may be wrong about that because I don't think Bush was near as obtuse as people took him to be. Like, that was an act.
But I don't know that he really cared about being president either.
Speaker A
Do you feel a need to go back and rework anything from your past? Songs that come from a place at a certain time that may morph over time?
Speaker B
Yeah, I mean, I'll do Different versions of. I do. You know, I record live versions of done in the studio. But I don't feel the need to really go back.
I mean, there's a couple of them that I thought had more potential. It might be nice to re record someday. And it's probably possible because a lot of my songs didn't get noticed by anybody.
Redo it and it sounds brand new.
Speaker A
Are you working towards a next album?
Speaker B
Yeah, we're just starting on it. Got a couple new songs in the live set and about got cece talked into producing, which would be great.
I don't really want to produce myself anymore for a while.
Speaker A
What do you. What do you hope CC brings to the project?
Speaker B
A lot more knowledge of the studio than I have. Just he'll run with any bizarre idea. He's been doing a thing now he calls vinylizing in his mastering process.
He'll get him to actually press a vinyl disc.
Speaker A
Nice.
Speaker B
And then, you know, put that on a really expensive turntable. So there's no....
Transcript
Welcome to Country Fried Rock, where we talk with musicians to find out what inspires their creativity.
Speaker A:Country Fried Rock Music Uncovered we're chatting with James McMurtry, a powerful figure in the music scene, including many social change songs and a recent protest song regarding the Occupy Wall street movement as well.
Speaker A:And that just touches the tip of what James McMurtry does.
Speaker A:Good morning, James.
Speaker A:How are you?
Speaker B:I'm good.
Speaker A:Thank you for being with us.
Speaker A:How did you start writing songs originally?
Speaker B:Well, I started writing songs so women would talk to me.
Speaker B:Basically.
Speaker B:I knew I wasn't gonna make the football team, so.
Speaker A:So in high school.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:What can a poor boy do, you know?
Speaker A:So original stuff started for you pretty early then?
Speaker B:Well, I guess I started.
Speaker B:I was about 18, and I never really finished anything that I wanted to play till I was in my mid-20s.
Speaker B:But you know, that.
Speaker B:That time I was playing little beer garden gigs for 10 bucks and free beer.
Speaker B:You know, you had to play certain number of Jimmy Buffett songs or the food and beverage guy wouldn't hire you, you know.
Speaker B:But then I started working in a few originals with the.
Speaker B:With all the COVID tunes.
Speaker A:Where was it that you were wanting to go with your original music at that time?
Speaker B:At that time, I was kind of in the vein of David Bromberg and some of the obscure writers that I knew about.
Speaker B:John Hartford, people like that.
Speaker A:What tapped you into that music?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:Somebody turned me onto it when I was a teenager and I mean, I listen to the Rolling Stones as well, but I listen to that other stuff too.
Speaker B:So the Hartford and Bromberg stuff lended itself to solo acoustic more.
Speaker B:I wasn't working with bands much at that time, and I went to school in Tucson at that time.
Speaker B:It was really easier find a gig as a solo.
Speaker B:There were a lot of these outdoor beer garden type places and coffee houses, that sort of thing.
Speaker B:I mean, there were a few clubs that hired bands, but the bands of the time, that was new wave era, and I wasn't really into that.
Speaker B:I was into Southern rock.
Speaker B:Fortunately, there was one pretty cool southern rock band there.
Speaker B:But a lot of times they'd have to go down to Bisbee to play because there were enough old hippies down there that they could find a gig.
Speaker A:As you moved forward then and continued writing.
Speaker A:And it evolved for you, though, into something a little different.
Speaker A:What kept you driving with the writing?
Speaker B:It was just something I did.
Speaker B:I was going to do that whether I was making a living at it or not.
Speaker B:But yeah, it was just something I wanted to do it was my drive.
Speaker A:As you move forward in what you were doing, you've had kind of huge peaks of critical acclaim.
Speaker A:But then some of the songs that stand out over time have been maybe the quieter.
Speaker A:I don't want to put the term protest song on them, except that some of them maybe are.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, the protests.
Speaker B:One of the protest songs got noticed.
Speaker B:I wrote that song, We Can't Make It Here.
Speaker B:I put that out right before.
Speaker B: Right before the: Speaker B:I wrote it and I put it out of the free download.
Speaker B:And it got a lot more attention than anything I'd put on a record in a long, long time.
Speaker B:And I think it just got.
Speaker B:It was lucky in that a lot of people identified with it.
Speaker B:Just the nature of a popular song.
Speaker B:A popular song is more about the listener than the writer.
Speaker B:The listener has to hear his or herself in the narrator song.
Speaker B:So I was in the right place at the right time for that.
Speaker B:And of course, that song developed a life of its own.
Speaker B:Now I just re recorded that because I heard Joan Baez wanted to sing on it.
Speaker B:I went over to Louisiana and C.C.
Speaker B:adcock and I put together a new track for it.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker B:And I think we're.
Speaker B:I think Joan's supposed to put her vocal on it this week.
Speaker B:I'm not sure that's exciting.
Speaker A:I didn't know about that.
Speaker A:Yeah, not so much.
Speaker A:When a song ends up with a life of its own, that may not have anything to do with where you thought it would go, but in terms of having a feeling for yourself that you want to put into writing, and then it gets picked up like that in popularity.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know.
Speaker A:The protest songs are started with the intent of ever being, quote, unquote, popular.
Speaker B:Well, that song was started because I felt powerless because I live in Texas and I tend to vote Democratic, which means my vote kind of goes nowhere.
Speaker B:So the only power I had was through song and through a record deal.
Speaker B:I recorded that and first did it as a solo acoustic thing because I couldn't get the band in the studio for another two weeks.
Speaker B:So I did that and I went down to KGSR radio because I knew the morning guy, Kevin Connor, let me spin anything.
Speaker B:And I put some old style bleeps on it.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:So we wouldn't get in FCC trouble.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And went down and spun it at morning drive time.
Speaker B: of course, you know, this was: Speaker B:Bush's numbers were soaring.
Speaker B:And everybody took that as an anti Bush song, strictly.
Speaker B:So I put it on the air and I had nasty emails on the website before I even got home because so many people just had their whole identity wrapped up in George Bush.
Speaker B:Think about it.
Speaker B:For me, the song was not strictly an anti Bush song.
Speaker B:I mean, I was no fan of the Bush administration.
Speaker B:But a lot of what the narrator complains about in that song really took wing under Clinton and probably have their roots further back in Reagan, Nixon, you know, failing back.
Speaker B:So, you know, the chief problem that the narrator has, outsourcing, you know, and Clinton really fanned the flames on that one.
Speaker B:Bush did nothing to slow it down because his friends were getting just as rich as Clinton's were.
Speaker B:And it's still going on and it's an ongoing process.
Speaker B:And so the song works just fine under Obama.
Speaker A:When you take on a social issue that goes beyond Republican and Democrat, do you find that it opens up discourse or that it closes people off?
Speaker B:It's starting to open up discourse.
Speaker B:During the Bush years, it closed people off because you basically had two camps that were almost like religious cults and they weren't going to listen to each other.
Speaker B:Now, with any luck, we can get some dialogue going because, you know, I don't see the problem in this country as right left, Republican, Democrat.
Speaker B:I see it more as the interests of the people versus the interests of the corporations.
Speaker A:And so is that what drew you into the Occupy Wall street movement?
Speaker B:Definitely.
Speaker B:This is not just the U.S. this is a global thing.
Speaker B:What we've seen happening over the last few years is that governments have less and less power and they have less power to protect the people because the power now lies in multinational corporations.
Speaker B:Back to Clinton.
Speaker B:This is what Clinton should have been in peace for was nafta.
Speaker B:I don't care what his love life is like, what his practices are, but there's, you know, some of NAFTA really undermines our sovereignty and our safety.
Speaker B:You know, Obama's just made a big show of blocking the Keystone pipeline.
Speaker B:Well, that pipeline is going to go through whether he wants it or not.
Speaker B:Because if it's blocked, the Canadian parent company can sue us under nafta.
Speaker B:Billions of dollars in projected loss of profit.
Speaker B:You know, so there's no way out of that.
Speaker B:And it was NAFTA that did it.
Speaker B:You know, it's been done before.
Speaker B:The state of California at one point, they're interested in making their gasoline burn clean.
Speaker B:And there was a Canadian company, that parent company that owned a US Company that produced something called mtbe, which makes the gas burn clean.
Speaker B:Problem with it is it's very hard to contain it's.
Speaker B:Very carcinogenic.
Speaker B:And a pinhole leak in an underground tank can contain contaminate groundwater for miles around.
Speaker B:Well, they came up with some contaminated wells around Lake Tahoe where the water quality is what they have to sell for the most part.
Speaker B:The state of California banned mtv.
Speaker B:Well, the Canadian company sued the state and won.
Speaker B:So the next time I was out there, suddenly half the gas stations are closed down and the other half have their tanks dug up, have to replace them with better tanks to hold that stuff.
Speaker B:You know, that was a case of a corporation having more power than a government, and it shouldn't be that way.
Speaker B:The governments are here.
Speaker B:And I don't fear government.
Speaker B:I think big government could be useful.
Speaker B:You know, it's basically a service organization.
Speaker A:Do you feel, and I don't know if this was the intent or not, but do you feel any kind of bond with the history of songs for social change in our country?
Speaker B:No, I haven't really thought about that.
Speaker B:It's just more of a reaction, what is going on.
Speaker B:And it's just very tricky writing any kind of political song because it's very easy for the song to turn into a sermon, which nobody's going to want to listen to.
Speaker B:And then more often it turns into a rant, which it can actually be kind of entertaining.
Speaker B:But if you're really, really lucky, you get a song.
Speaker A:I think about just having watched the Grammys on Sunday night and Bruce Springsteen opening it up and thinking about the misinterpretation of songs that he has in the past.
Speaker A:Do you feel that you're getting any kind of opposite reaction of what the thoughts were behind what you wanted to say?
Speaker B:Sometimes, yeah.
Speaker B:I had another song called Chaney's Toy, which is more of a rant, and it starts with the image of the unknown soldier.
Speaker B:I guess I wasn't clear enough because a lot of people seem to think I was saying the soldiers were Cheney's toys.
Speaker B:Not at all.
Speaker B:I was saying that Bush was Cheney's toy.
Speaker B:I felt like that was.
Speaker B:That whole administration appeared to really be sort of a puppet show.
Speaker B:Bush as the puppet and Cheney is the puppet master.
Speaker B:I may be wrong about that because I don't think Bush was near as obtuse as people took him to be.
Speaker B:Like, that was an act.
Speaker B:But I don't know that he really cared about being president either.
Speaker A:Do you feel a need to go back and rework anything from your past?
Speaker A:Songs that come from a place at a certain time that may morph over time?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I'll do Different versions of.
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker B:You know, I record live versions of done in the studio.
Speaker B:But I don't feel the need to really go back.
Speaker B:I mean, there's a couple of them that I thought had more potential.
Speaker B:It might be nice to re record someday.
Speaker B:And it's probably possible because a lot of my songs didn't get noticed by anybody.
Speaker B:Redo it and it sounds brand new.
Speaker A:Are you working towards a next album?
Speaker B:Yeah, we're just starting on it.
Speaker B:Got a couple new songs in the live set and about got cece talked into producing, which would be great.
Speaker B:I don't really want to produce myself anymore for a while.
Speaker A:What do you.
Speaker A:What do you hope CC brings to the project?
Speaker B:A lot more knowledge of the studio than I have.
Speaker B:Just he'll run with any bizarre idea.
Speaker B:He's been doing a thing now he calls vinylizing in his mastering process.
Speaker B:He'll get him to actually press a vinyl disc.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker B:And then, you know, put that on a really expensive turntable.
Speaker B:So there's no.
Speaker B:He's not going for hiss or crackle.
Speaker B:He's not trying to make it sound like.
Speaker B:Like it's your grandma's old controller or whatever.
Speaker B:But the vinyl adds a peculiar kind of distortion.
Speaker B:So then it'll run the vinyl back to digital.
Speaker A:Ooh.
Speaker B:That you have the warmth of the vinyl and that strange stereo effect it does.
Speaker B:You know, a needle doesn't run straight down the middle of a groove.
Speaker B:It tends to bounce back and forth.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Get a little bit of left, a little bit of right.
Speaker B:And there's.
Speaker B:There's a face phasing effect that happens that I don't know if you can get any other way.
Speaker B:And it works for some things.
Speaker B:I may try it.
Speaker B:You know who would have come up with that?
Speaker A:As you've had the chance to work with different people over the years, particularly in terms of when you've got a set of songs that you think are ready to record.
Speaker A:What has been different for you with working with producers versus doing it yourself?
Speaker B:I'm doing it myself.
Speaker B:I pretty much.
Speaker B:I just booked the studio time and hope I get the songs written.
Speaker B:Producers would rather you had the songs written already.
Speaker B:They would like to.
Speaker B:They like to do a little pre production.
Speaker B:Actually know the song before you go in the studio, which is much more economical way of doing it.
Speaker B:So I want to try that this time.
Speaker A:So as you move towards that then with finalizing these songs that you want to take in, are you looking for anyone else to work with?
Speaker B:Working with my roadband.
Speaker B:Basic.
Speaker B:Basic tracks are cornbread on the bass and.
Speaker B:And Aaron Hess on drums.
Speaker B:And Tim Holt probably played some guitar on it.
Speaker B:And then, you know, we'll listen and see if it needs anything else.
Speaker A:If you're going to work with a producer, do you like to collaborate with them on those decisions or is that something you leave up to them?
Speaker B:Record making is always a collaboration between the artist and producer.
Speaker B:So, you know, if he has an idea and I think it's a good idea, then yeah, well, we'll go with it and vice versa.
Speaker A:What is changing for you as you write this next batch of songs?
Speaker B:Just a little more personal.
Speaker B:I haven't ever dug very deep.
Speaker B:I don't like to write about emotions or any of that stuff.
Speaker B:I run out of everything else.
Speaker B:I look inside now a little bit.
Speaker A:How has the concept of giving away these recent songs brought new people to your music?
Speaker B:Well, it brought a lot of people in.
Speaker B:When I first put it out, we can't make it here, I had no idea of the power of the Internet.
Speaker B:Kind of a Luddite as far as computers go.
Speaker B:And a lot of bands were starting to do that then, you know, I think it was Radiohead, British band that gave east coast band.
Speaker B:That was a concept that was just kind of long.
Speaker B:Like it does work.
Speaker B:You know, give them something for free and then charge them the next time around.
Speaker A:Do you feel that you've gotten some people to stick around since then?
Speaker B: I hadn't put a record out in: Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And the thing still seems to be growing a little bit.
Speaker B:It's interesting.
Speaker B:Goes against the rules.
Speaker B:As I was taught 20 years ago.
Speaker B:I have an album out every 18 months.
Speaker A:I talk with a lot of people who say that they're finding new life to records that are, you know, two or three years old.
Speaker A:And it's kind of baffling to them to a degree.
Speaker A:But as you're on the road a lot, what places are building for you?
Speaker A:That may or may not seem obvious.
Speaker B:One of our biggest markets is Bangor, Maine.
Speaker B:And that happened because Stephen King has a big classic rock station there.
Speaker B:Oh, classic rock play is way different than Americana or Triple A play.
Speaker B:For a while there, we could fill a 500 seat theater for four nights in a row.
Speaker B:He's been real good to us.
Speaker A:That's pretty cool.
Speaker A:Are you finding that with the Occupy Wall street commentary through your song that you're bringing in a younger crowd?
Speaker B:Well, that's been happening before Occupy.
Speaker B:We kind of have a multi generational crowd.
Speaker B:I've been doing it long enough that I got second generation fans and it'll probably be third generation before too long.
Speaker B:But you know, word of mouth is a thing.
Speaker B:If you can keep going long enough, eventually people discover you.
Speaker B:And that's what I'm finding now.
Speaker B:I just spent a week on a cruise ship, which is sort of a floating music vessel.
Speaker B:But I was playing to a lot of people that came up and said, yeah, my friend just gave me your CD last week.
Speaker B:I didn't know you existed.
Speaker A:It's like overnight sensation after 20 years.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:I've noticed proliferation, for lack of a better word, of these music cruise fests of all different kinds.
Speaker A:Do you get a chance to listen to any other music when you're part of that?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, that's one of the cool things about it.
Speaker B:Lucinda Williams was incredible.
Speaker B:Yeah, I haven't seen her play in long.
Speaker B:15 years.
Speaker B:Probably nailed it.
Speaker A:When y' all are on the road and performing in different places, getting different crowds that are both old and new to you crowds, do you get a chance to work with others or see others as part of your lineup?
Speaker B:Generally these days we have a young writer named Johnny Burke that comes out and opens for us.
Speaker B:He follows us around.
Speaker B:It's a lot easier if you bring your own support.
Speaker B:Cost you a little money.
Speaker B:But you know what, you know what you got to deal with every night.
Speaker B:I don't like showing up and, you know, opening act was supposed to be solo, but now it's a band.
Speaker B:That means you got to move a lot of stuff around to accommodate them.
Speaker B:And we usually do, I mean, because we've been the opening act as well.
Speaker B:And whenever you get a somebody with a rock star attitude that won't move any gear to give you any space.
Speaker B:Counterproductive.
Speaker B:I had, you know, there was a guy one night.
Speaker B:Yeah, if I move this monitor 1 inch, the sound is going to change as well.
Speaker B:You know, if you have 10 people in the audience, your sound is going to change too.
Speaker B:I guess you just want it to be empty, you know, Ridiculous.
Speaker B:Dad had to be airlifted in and out of the stage, keep tripping over stuff.
Speaker A:Well, I've only gotten to catch you in festival situation.
Speaker A:It's a different type of gig.
Speaker A:So what's different for you all in that sort of environment for your performance versus a headlining environment?
Speaker B:With festivals, you generally don't get a sound check and you're using their gear.
Speaker B:You might bring your own guitar amps, but you know, it's their drums and bass rig because you don't have time to change all that stuff out.
Speaker B:And it's usually outdoor, so it's a whole different sound.
Speaker B:I don't really care for outdoor venues much because it's just hard to get good sound because it just goes away.
Speaker B:You know, if you have a room to play in and the room is an instrument, you can figure out how to tweak it, make it sound good.
Speaker B:Well, you know, most house guys are pretty good, but every now and then you run up against somebody that just doesn't know what he's doing, rewire his whole life.
Speaker B:You need somebody on your team that can do that.
Speaker B:A few years ago, when the major labels were in better shape, they were buying in these kids and sending them out and they sent them out with a full band that they were paying real money for.
Speaker B:But all that stuff and no sound men.
Speaker B:So they're spending all that money and trusting their investment to a house guy that may or may not know how to mix.
Speaker B:These guys, most of them are good, but it's a roulette game as things.
Speaker A:Have changed with the business rapidly for everybody.
Speaker A:If you're moving into the studio soon with the next batch of songs, what do you think you're going to do with them to get them out to.
Speaker B:People that I don't know at this point.
Speaker B:The business has shaken up so badly in the last few years, you have to weigh pros and cons of going with more traditional label deal or self release, which works pretty well for some people.
Speaker B:You know, what with the Internet you can, you can advertise yourself pretty well.
Speaker B:The trade has gone more and more to download, so distribution doesn't matter as much as it used to.
Speaker B:So it still matters for me.
Speaker B:We do a good fair amount of hard product, actual CDs.
Speaker B:People, you know, some people like to buy a disc and look at the artwork and that sort of thing.
Speaker B:So I think I probably go with the traditional deal.
Speaker A:We're getting a lot of people doing very limited vinyl pressing with digital download.
Speaker B:Yeah, vinyl's kind of come back.
Speaker B:Well, you know, we did vinyl on our last two.
Speaker B: My last release in: Speaker B:Yeah, Live in Europe.
Speaker B:And then I re released the old live records live and three on double vinyl because that thing was 77 minutes long.
Speaker B:Perfect length for two discs.
Speaker A:Perfect.
Speaker B:The tricky thing about vinyl is you can't have too long a side or you lose fidelity as the needle gets to the middle of the disc, it starts dragging across the groove instead of down it.
Speaker B:So you lose one side early.
Speaker B:Yeah, so.
Speaker B:So you want, you want about 18 minute sides.
Speaker A:You were talking about rereleasing some of your previous stuff and having people who come to your music going, man, I just heard about you.
Speaker A:How is that helping you in terms of feeling like you're continuing to be new with your creator?
Speaker B:Yeah, it does exactly that.
Speaker B:That's kind of an ego boost, you know, like we're getting somewhere sonically.
Speaker A:Are you changing in any ways or anticipating that?
Speaker B:In my solo shows, I'm playing a lot more 12 string than I used to.
Speaker A:What's led to that?
Speaker B:I just wanted to mix up the guitar sounds.
Speaker B:I'm doing a little more solos than I used to because now there are people that will go to a solo show that don't go to the rock shows and vice versa.
Speaker B:Now you have to bundle every niche that you possibly fit into together.
Speaker B:If you're gonna call it a career, you can't be one thing.
Speaker B:And I've got an electric coil string at home I need to get out of the closet and mess with because I could use some different tones in my rock show too.
Speaker A:That'd be pretty cool.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Are you still using Austin as kind of a home base?
Speaker B:Yes, where I live.
Speaker B:And when we're home, we have a regular gig at the Continental Club on Wednesday and we do a lot of weekends around Texas and Oklahoma if we're not touring.
Speaker A:The whole residency thing that Austin is known for, how does that work for you in terms.
Speaker A:The gigs are usually long.
Speaker B:Yeah, probably midnight to 2:00am Which, I mean, it's long by modern standards, I guess.
Speaker B:There's nothing like, you know, some of those old blues guys that play from, you know, 8:00 o'clock to 4 in the morning, it's fairly late.
Speaker B:I tend to get a younger crowd because they're the ones who stay up late.
Speaker B:We get a lot of travelers too.
Speaker B:The Continental Club works great for us because people, they'll come in there from around the world and go there just because they heard of it.
Speaker B:Doesn't matter who's playing, you know, they'll stay at the San Jose Hotel across the street so they can stagger across the street home when they're done, not have to drive anywhere.
Speaker A:Although it's the same place.
Speaker A:It's a different crowd every time.
Speaker A:What keeps it fresh for you?
Speaker B:The different crowd keeps it fresh once in a while, working on new material.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't get tired of it for some reason.
Speaker A:Are you testing these new songs in that environment?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, we've done some of that.
Speaker A:How do you feel about the constant YouTubing of everything that ever happens?
Speaker B:That I don't care for much.
Speaker B:Yeah, I regard it as theft, but there's nothing you can do about it anymore.
Speaker B:We used to have a no video policy, but you know, now that everybody can video with the cell phone, it's just kind of pointless.
Speaker B:But we do discourage it.
Speaker B:If I want to make a video, I'll hire a crew to come in and make a good video.
Speaker B:Really want out there off the cell phone?
Speaker B:It doesn't sound good, it doesn't look good, but it's just the way of the world nowadays.
Speaker A:You know, we just had this whole big public thing regarding intellectual property and the SOPA or no SOPA and PIPA and all that.
Speaker A:What are your thoughts on the best way to protect intellectual property and still work with how things have changed?
Speaker B:I don't know how you protect it.
Speaker B:You have to ask a lawyer.
Speaker B:I guess this whole thing kind of started with Napster and my feeling is if you think music should be free, then make your own free music.
Speaker B:Mine you should pay for.
Speaker B:I work very hard on this.
Speaker B:That mentality is starting to permeate the whole society.
Speaker B:My lawyer was at a seminar one day, teaches law as well as practicing and there was, there's a tenured professor up on the stage saying, well, you know, music should be free and you guys should just, you know, not worry about money and just concentrate on your art.
Speaker B:Excuse me, you got tenure.
Speaker B:You don't have to worry about where you're making your house payment.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, I obviously have no clue what the answer would be on it, but because we all do care about intellectual property rights for artists, you got to protect it.
Speaker A:You got to make your money doing your craft in your career.
Speaker A:What was proposed looked like it was really protecting the rights of the labels, not necessarily the rights of the artist.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's usually what happens.
Speaker B:I don't mind if the labels are protected too.
Speaker B:I kind of like having record labels in this world, pirates that they were.
Speaker B:I'm going to miss them.
Speaker B:It is a collaborator and you know, your business partner a lot of times is going to try to get a little more of the action.
Speaker B:But it's a long term relationship as.
Speaker A:You move forward with this upcoming record.
Speaker A:And it's kind of cool to hear about some maybe possible sonic changes as well as lyrical content.
Speaker A:Do you have a vision for what the whole package like conceptually will be.
Speaker B:I don't really.
Speaker B:Can't really do that even.
Speaker B:You know, when you set out to write a song, you kind of have to give it its head.
Speaker B:Might turn out to be something different than you, than you thought it was when you started.
Speaker B:If you try too hard to make a point and force it to do what you want it to initially, you're liable to beat the life out of it.
Speaker B:You got to stay alert and see where it wants to turn.
Speaker B:And that happens with the record project as well.
Speaker A:Do you have a time frame on that?
Speaker B:I don't found that that doesn't work either.
Speaker B:Even back in the days when we had release schedules and all that, nothing was ever adhered to.
Speaker B:Came out when and if they did, you know.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I really appreciate it and thank you very much for your time.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Take it easy, James.
Speaker A:Bye bye.
Speaker B:All right, bye now.
Speaker A:Country Fried Rock Find the full playlist from this episode on countryfriedrock.org check us out on itunes.
Speaker A:No music, just talk.
Speaker A:Our theme music is from the Full Tones.
Speaker A:Our Country Fried Rock stinger is from Steve Soto in the Twisted Hearts.
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